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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Subject: Banning the Burqa
I'll get right to the point: I don't like the burqa.  I don't like what I think it means.  I don't know its history and I'm too lazy to read up on it, but it seems to be a tangible sign of systemic repression.  I don't like to ban things, but if ever I was convinced it could serve a greater public good, this is one thing that wouldn't take much effort to believe.

But a lot of people are serious about bans.  Australia's talked about it.  Germany's on the fence about it.  Belgium's done it.  Last night France took the first steps towards doing it.  These countries are worried about their national character, and the kinds of things their neighbors must be thinking when they allow this sort of burqa shit to go on.  I guess.

Now, it's important to act like a Roman when you're in Rome.  When I lived in Japan I did everything I could* to blend in: I learned the language* and dressed like the Japanese* and acted like the Japanese* and so on.  When these burqa-wearing women (I assume they're women, they have long fluttery eyelashes which make me want to rape someone (hrm, maybe they should be forced to wear sunglasses too (clearly I cannot be trusted...  No wait, it's the woman's sexy fault, which is the point of the burqa))) come to my country** they should act like we do. 

That's right, if you come to Australia, you gotta drink shitty rum, marry a guy with a fluorescent shirt, blurt out two or more unruly and uneducatable children, and get fat.  But you do it in tight jeans or sweatpants, not a burqa!  It's unAustralian!  UnFrench, unBelgian, unGerman!  For fuck's sake, you act as if you have your own history and culture or something.  If you want to be like that, go back home to your mud huts and goats*** and wear whatever you want (probably dirt, 'cause you're shit-poor).

* None of these things are true
** lol jk I'm not from here
*** Outside of the West, everyone lives in mud huts with goats, don't they?
BLEARGH
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Seriously though, this burqa shit annoys me.  I am a staunch believer in freedom: of choice, of speech, even of religion if you insist on being a fool.  Power to ya.

But it annoys me that this is even a discussion we have to have.  The burqa is a symbol of repression, it's everything we've moved past in the last two hundred years, and it's astounding that anyone thinks they're still a good idea.  This is not a debate I want to have, FFS.  It's not an answerable problem, and I'd prefer that it just sorted itself out without making me think too hard about it.

I do not like the burqa.  As a personal preference, I don't think they're in any way a good thing.  I cannot, however, see any reasonable way to ban them. 

[Image: http://nfgworld.com/grafx/throwaway/muslimlol.png]

Security:
You might argue it's a massive security problem, but if we ban face coverings then we have a huge problem every time someone throws a costume party and dons a mask. 

Religion:
Singling out Islam as the problem becomes a religious firestorm, and sadly plays right into the hands of the intolerant.  I'd prefer to allow freedom of religion.  And besides that, how can we separate culture from religion?  If you start banning some things, where do you stop?  Like all censorship, once you start doing it you can't stop, the only rational option is not to go down that road at all.

Human Rights:
Not every woman wearing a burqa is being actively repressed.  Some profess to like them, and want to wear them as a personal choice.  How can you prevent the burqa without hurting the women who want to wear them?  And what of women who will be forced to stay home if they cannot wear their burqa outside?

It's an impossible problem.  It cannot be solved by a free society, unless everyone who wears or wants his family to wear one just stops doing it.  We're generations away from educating and liberating all people in this way.

The whole issue is fucking annoying.

Other reading:
Wikipedia summary of British debate
Der Spiegel's European summary
Der Spiegel, the burqa in the context of women's rights
Criminal caught wearing a burqa
BLEARGH
Author name #3
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Member since Sep 2007 · 173 posts · Location: Kobe, Japan
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In reply to post #1
HEHEH...Delicious sarcasm aside..
As a general rule I outright oppose any attempt at banning pretty much any part of someone's culture that it no way affects other people directly. The Burqa is a tricky one though, yes it has a long history of subjugating women, but mostly when worn in another country it is voluntary.

Most Muslim women I have talked to wear a Hijab (head scarf and modest dress) and they do so proudly and by choice. They did not have too much to say about the Burqa, as they are mostly from a southeast Asian Muslim background were the Burqa is rarely used, other than they thought it was overkill.
In my opinion wearing a Burqa is indeed overkill, but so is baning it. Banning men from forcing women to wear a Burqa on the other hand makes more sense (but is neigh impossible to enforce).

What annoys me the most in this debate is the reasoning the various governments are using for banning the Burqa, it's essentially racist paranoia (they might be hiding a suicide vest or other weaponry, it might actually be a man on the run from the police, get the picture?). If someone was to say that they wish the Burqa to be banned because in this fast paced world of cars, motorbikes and trains it is dangerous for a person to walk around with with a artificially and unnecessarily limited sight I might be more inclined to listen (and quickly dismiss because that would lead to the banning of pretty much all things that might distract us when walking around).
“Be conservative in what you do; be liberal in what you accept from others.” J. Postel
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Quote by Junpei:
What annoys me the most in this debate is the reasoning the various governments are using for banning the Burqa, it's essentially racist paranoia (they might be hiding a suicide vest or other weaponry, it might actually be a man on the run from the police, get the picture?).
Yeah, but in Germany there's already a ban on anything designed to hide your face (balaclavas, etc).  It's to prevent all criminals from conveniently masking their identity from surveillance.  Is the burqa different?  All a criminal needs to do is don a burqa and he's loopholed his way into a bank robbery.

...If the government really wanted to ban the things, they'd rob a couple of banks wearing burqas, and BAM, justified.

Quote by Junpei:
If someone was to say that they wish the Burqa to be banned because in this fast paced world of cars, motorbikes and trains it is dangerous for a person to walk around with with a artificially and unnecessarily limited sight I might be more inclined to listen...

Yeah, but burqachicks aren't allowed to drive are they?
BLEARGH
Author name #5
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Member since Sep 2007 · 173 posts · Location: Kobe, Japan
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Quote by NFG:
Yeah, but burqachicks aren't allowed to drive are they?
Orly? Interesting because I distinctly remember seeing one driving around Canberra just last week...
“Be conservative in what you do; be liberal in what you accept from others.” J. Postel
Author name (Administrator) #6
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Quote by Junpei:
I distinctly remember seeing one driving around Canberra just last week...
Bank robber.
BLEARGH
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Member since Apr 2010 · 32 posts · Location: Brisbane
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In reply to post #4
Quote by NFG:
Yeah, but in Germany there's already a ban on anything designed to hide your face (balaclavas, etc).  It's to prevent all criminals from conveniently masking their identity from surveillance.  Is the burqa different?  All a criminal needs to do is don a burqa and he's loopholed his way into a bank robbery.

...If the government really wanted to ban the things, they'd rob a couple of banks wearing burqas, and BAM, justified.

I think that justifies it enough...... Although I am a Liberal and I hate to do things that deprive people of a freedom of choice, its more a matter of security of the whole and protection of the women who don't wish to wear it. There is never a perfect answer, but look at it this way:

1. We ban the burqa resulting in: Helping end a oppression of women gone on to long. Stop criminals/terrorists using them as a way to hurt/rob people. Make a statement that religion comes after state and the welfare of the whole country. And then make a attempt to give them a viable alternative, its 2010, we as a human race are inventing anything and everything. I am sure a solution could be adequately attempted. 

2. We leave it as it is: A portion of the women get what they want (To wear a piece of material) while others suffer oppression that we got rid of in this society decades ago. We let a single religion get its way because somehow the small majority is worth more than the whole. We give criminals all sorts of ways to cover their face and evade checks by police. Deprive people of their liberty i.e ban something they want (I take this point as a Con of choosing option 1).

Although distasteful, one choice has to be made and neither are perfect. Though in my opinion point 1 is a lot more desirable. You will piss of a lot of people who practice Islam. But the country comes first and this is one of the hard choices that I think has to be made.
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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The security angle just sounds so much like a cop out.  We must censor to protect the children!  We must enforce a dress code to protect the society!  I don't disagree, I just wish it weren't so.  And this opens the door to all manner of followups, doesn't it?  Once you excuse one act of censorship, how can you fight the next guy's attempt to censor?  Or the next?  Eventually we all get to have our personal bugbears denied to all others, and who would want to live in that society?
BLEARGH
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Member since Nov 2007 · 121 posts
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Given this, I'm not sure a debate can even be started.
"...either stop and think or fuck right off" (TheOutrider)
Author name #10
Member since Apr 2010 · 32 posts · Location: Brisbane
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All cop outs aside, out of a 20 000 person poll on today tonight 94% said they wanted the burqa banned. But I see your point about the censorship thing, I hate the nanny state we have here and I would hate to contribute to it. Though you could look at this as an advancement of human rights and humanity vs religion. On those grounds it might just be worth it. But it falls down to personal opinion =/.
Author name (Administrator) #11
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Tough decisions need to be made.  This sort of nebulous lose/lose/win/win/gnash/etc stuff really sucks.  But, much like smoking and seatbelts and unleaded gas, sometimes you have to restrict freedoms to save the world. 

Especially if people are too stupid to do it themselves.
BLEARGH
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Member since Apr 2010 · 32 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Bit off topic, but the mandatory use of seat belts initially increased road fatalities. And arguably still maintains a higher death toll. This phenomenon came about due to the fact that pedestrians did not have seat belts when the drivers now feeling safer decided to drive faster as a result.

I am probs being picky, but would you really ban smoking? I would think as long as you make sure my* smoking does not effect someone else, its a personal choice to kill myself. As long as the facts are provided by the reasonable governing power, i.e it can kill you, I think people should be able to do what they like as long as it doesn't produce any negative externalizes for others.

*I actually don't smoke XD.
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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I was using these more as examples of people being too stupid to curb their own self-destructive behaviour.  It's too often true the people need to be legislated into behaving properly.
BLEARGH
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Member since Jun 2009 · 25 posts
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In reply to post #12
Quote by Kinkas:
would you really ban smoking? I would think as long as you make sure my smoking does not effect someone else, its a personal choice to kill myself.


problem with this is that it does effect others, 2nd hand smoke for instance is seen to have a high chance of allowing humans to develop lung cancer (thank you wikipedia). also it smells pretty terrible...so NYAH!

On the Burqa issue, i really dont give a damn. If crazy muslim/religious fundementalists want to wear/put something over their women I dont care as long as it doesnt effect me, as soon as it starts effecting me though i'll rip the curtains right off them myself (not really, im far too passive and indecisive).

But really if they think it appeases whichever spiritual diety they think watches over them, im fine with that. Just dont make me have to hear/see/interact with the crap that goes along with it.

Peace out Nigers!
money cake..ayumyumyumyumyumyum
This post was edited on 2010-07-18, 10:07 by ugsey.
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Member since May 2011 · 2203 posts · Location: Brisbane
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Quote by Ugsey:
But really if they think it appeases whichever spiritual diety they think watches over them, im fine with that. Just dont make me have to hear/see/interact with the crap that goes along with it.

That's a lot of opinion with startlingly few considerations given to the subject at hand, or the conversation so far. 

You didn't mention the security aspect of it, or the human rights component of a veil virtually synonymous with oppression of women, and you tied it all together with a remarkably self-absorbed blurt about how anything that doesn't affect you directly doesn't matter.  Then you plopped a rotten cherry on top of the whole thing by misspelling niggers (or did you mean to call us all Nigers?  Also a strange thing to do.  What if I called you a Mali or a Colombia?)
BLEARGH
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